The largest Civic Type R club forum

[Papillon]

And once again you're deciding that you know better than Honda, and better than anyone else because.....well because you say so.

This product may fail, it may be a resounding success. I really don't care either way. But ultimately your entire argument comes down to "I don't like it and I can't see why anyone will buy one". The greenies are now a real force in the market, whether you like it or not, or whether they're completely kidding themselves (yep) or not.

[EvoStu]

And once again you're deciding that you know better than Honda, and better than anyone else because.....well because you say so.

This product may fail, it may be a resounding success. I really don't care either way. But ultimately your entire argument comes down to "I don't like it and I can't see why anyone will buy one". The greenies are now a real force in the market, whether you like it or not, or whether they're completely kidding themselves (yep) or not.

Plus his argument is once again riddled with FAIL quotes.

He believes the Insight is cramped despite it having more interior space than the Prius which costs £4K more.
Ali also states the CRZ is cramped, but once again......has he sat in it, driven it etc? Nope.

Sometimes Ali your arguments are good but in this case you are missing the point of what Honda are trying to do.

At the end of the day its low on emissions which means cheap to tax, would be great for London and congested cities. I think Pap has hit the nail on the head, just because you don't like it doesn't mean its not a good product.

[Ali]

I can see why people buy Scenics. Wouldn't ever want one. I can see why people buy X5s, wouldn't dream of buying one. I can see why people buy Kia Picanto's, but I'd rather stab my testicles with a knitting needle than buying one. But the CRZ, at that price, is going to be bought by a tiny minority of Honda died in the wools, much like the first Insight because they've positioned it against far more talented rivals.

[Papillon]

Trouble is, your record on this isn't exactly good. You spent forever railing about the failings of the FN2, and what happened? They sold bucketloads. I can't for a moment imagine why anyone would ever have wanted to buy a Tigra (both old and new), but they did. All the points about how well it handles, how fast it goes and so on is supremely irrelevant to the target market - just as it was and is with the Tigra. Honda are simply trying to make the first hybrid that people might actually want because it looks like it has a bit of go, and that will turn heads and gain the attention of people who will decide that they want one. That is ALL that matters. "Ooh look I can have a sporty little car that is green and loves polar bears". Job done. The vast majority of people don't give a monkeys about the kind of things that you do.

[Ali]

He believes the Insight is cramped despite it having more interior space than the Prius which costs £4K more.

Only if you compare it to the first Prius. The current Prius is longer than an Avensis and dwarfs the Insight in luggage, cabin and storage space. It's better made inside and out and doesn't ride like the wheels have been nailed to the chassis rails. That's why they sell and Insights are failing to.

Ali also states the CRZ is cramped, but once again......has he sat in it, driven it etc? Nope.

You don't need to sit in a 2 seater hatchback with a parcel shelf style luggage area to realise it's small compared to the fully 4 seat Scirocco, Stu. Even the Mini will offer greater practicality.

At the end of the day its low on emissions which means cheap to tax, would be great for London and congested cities. I think Pap has hit the nail on the head, just because you don't like it doesn't mean its not a good product.

It could be a respectable product if it wasn't pushing £20,000. Let's just think about that figure. £20,000. If it were priced at the Insight's level, I could see it selling by the bucket load. Even at the Civic Type S bracket for the top spec, it would sell. But it's more expensive than an FN2 GT by £1000, model to model. You can buy a 1.8i SE MX5 for £5,000 less. Even you have to be shocked by the pricing, surely?

You spent forever railing about the failings of the FN2, and what happened? They sold bucketloads.

And? That doesn't stop the failings being any less. IIRC, my main point was the alienation of Type R fans and Honda enthusiasts, and that still stands. The effort made in its engineering is significantly poorer than any previous Type R or Honda performance product. That hasn't changed.

That is ALL that matters. "Ooh look I can have a sporty little car that is green and loves polar bears". Job done.

So it's fine to have an overweight and unnecessary drivetrain and be £4,000 too expensive as a result as long as it looks "good"? One of the world's greatest, or at least former greatest, automotive engineering firms producing a car that sells purely on pseudo green credentials and looking "good" at an exorbitant price? Glad your opinion of Honda is so low.

The vast majority of people don't give a monkeys about the kind of things that you do.

I used to think better of you, but the constant baiting through personal insults is pathetic. At least Stu is happy to debate the merits, or otherwise, of the car, do so in good humour and not lower himself to that level,

[Papillon]

And? That doesn't stop the failings being any less. IIRC, my main point was the alienation of Type R fans and Honda enthusiasts, and that still stands. The effort made in its engineering is significantly poorer than any previous Type R or Honda performance product. That hasn't changed.

The point is that the failings don't matter. The number of people who care about it is tiny. Honda want to sell cars, just like anyone else. For all the criticism you can level at it, it's sold well - which is also the point here.

So it's fine to have an overweight and unnecessary drivetrain and be £4,000 too expensive as a result as long as it looks "good"? One of the world's greatest, or at least former greatest, automotive engineering firms producing a car that sells purely on pseudo green credentials and looking "good" at an exorbitant price? Glad your opinion of Honda is so low.

I have no opinion of Honda - I don't get what you're saying. They're a business, they want to sell cars and make money. Anything else is just marketing guff.

I used to think better of you, but the constant baiting through personal insults is pathetic. At least Stu is happy to debate the merits, or otherwise, of the car, do so in good humour and not lower himself to that level,

Eh? :scratch: In what way is that remotely insulting? It's entirely true, and not even slightly a dig at you because it's true of me as well. You love all the things about the kind of cars you've chosen - performance, handling, engineering and so on. But most people don't - they really, really don't. They buy because it "looks nice", or because it makes a statement about them (or because it's all they can afford). Most people just don't care about the kinds of things that you do or I do. It's not insulting you to point that, just the opposite. You love the good things about cars, but most people aren't that interested in cars full stop, let alone the specific things that matter to the true petrolhead.

[grim66]

if it looks like that and costs the same as a type r new, ill buy one i like it!!!

i even contemplated hanging out and buying the normal cr-z rather than my type r as i like the 1.5 engine and anythign that looks that good and is low on tax,fuel, congestion charge to me sounds like a winner!!

but i cant fit two snowbaords in the back, and ive always wanted a type r. but i can always have one another day

[mat]

i've decided that a professional photoshop is needed to prove my earlier point:

the CRZ:



is a cross between a PRIUS and an RX8:




mat.

[Ali]

Here's one Mazda made earlier:



Based on the MX5 platform. Was a serious contender for production but all has gone quiet.

[EvoStu]

Mazda are an oddity. They either do things well or not at all. That concept will never make production because it looks good.

They only make cars that look absolutely toss as concept cars. Can I remind you of the hideous abomination that is the RX8 concept?

http://www.fast-autos.net/vehicles/Mazd ... 8_Concept/

Oh dear! A very rare time that a production car looks better than the concept.

[Ali]

That wasn't the original though. Oh no, the original concept was worse:



And then they go on and make the best looking concept in the history of everything, only to never make anything road going that resembles it:



The Furai's entire reason d'etre seems to have been to inspire the cr@p grill on the new 3MPS:



No, I don't see the point either *sigh*

And let's not forget that the CRZ is in good company of concepts that end up looking completely wrong in production. Remember this beauty:



And what happened when they shoehorned it on the wrong platform:

[Harv]

Had a play with that CRZ thing tonight, not my cuppa but its alright. Can't see who would buy it though, maybe some toff in London perhaps? Tec?

[FreQ]

Eh? :scratch: In what way is that remotely insulting? It's entirely true, and not even slightly a dig at you because it's true of me as well. You love all the things about the kind of cars you've chosen - performance, handling, engineering and so on. But most people don't - they really, really don't. They buy because it "looks nice", or because it makes a statement about them (or because it's all they can afford). Most people just don't care about the kinds of things that you do or I do. It's not insulting you to point that, just the opposite. You love the good things about cars, but most people aren't that interested in cars full stop, let alone the specific things that matter to the true petrolhead.

Gotta agree. I met up with a friend who has a shiney red FN2 (for the record, I LOVE red FN2's) and we got talking about the differences from my EP3. I mentioned the rear suspension and she didn't have a clue what I was talking about, so I changed the subject and we talked about the paint and front headlights.

Nothing wrong with that, just shows that most people really aren't bothered about geeky details on a practical production car, as long as it looks/sounds good. Personally I care about all the engineering under the skin, but many people buy because of the looks, sound, colour, status, economy or millions of other reasons.

Saying that, I really hope the CRZ Type R handles really well and goes fast!

[NHB_EP3_Chris]

Wow, I didnt realise this thread was still live and kicking. Some full on debatage in here.

Gotta agree. I met up with a friend who has a shiney red FN2 (for the record, I LOVE red FN2's) and we got talking about the differences from my EP3. I mentioned the rear suspension and she didn't have a clue what I was talking about, so I changed the subject and we talked about the paint and front headlights.

Nothing wrong with that, just shows that most people really aren't bothered about geeky details on a practical production car, as long as it looks/sounds good. Personally I care about all the engineering under the skin, but many people buy because of the looks, sound, colour, status, economy or millions of other reasons.

Saying that, I really hope the CRZ Type R handles really well and goes fast!

I think this sums up most modern Honda owners mate. Most aren't even remotely interested about what lies under the skin of their cars whether it be a performance car or not. Sure there is a still a strong tuning following for cars which perform better than the standard models, but we are talking about the majority here, not the minority of true Honda enthusiasts. Most people who own or have previously owned a performance Honda probably don't know what the differences are (other than aesthetics) between their model and the one it replaced, and rightly or wrongly, probably don't care either.

Unfortunately this hasn't gone unnoticed by the manufacturers, who are now using this to their benefit and are making the newer cars bigger, heavier, safer yet slower than they were in past years. They are diluting the market by cashing in on people who are more interested in owning a car simply because it carries the kudos of a high performance product. Cars have become fashion accessories, and people now want cars which provide them with an imaginary higher status which they feel is obtained simply by ownership, more so than it is by actually being able to use them anywhere near their full potential.