The largest Civic Type R club forum

[EvoStu]

Stu, as far as I can remember, Honda is the only manufacturer that was so resolutely in favour of double wishbones all round and then threw out it's own sound engineering principles and put in the most basic, and cheapest, suspension set up since leaf springs and solid axles went out of fashion. Has any other manufacturer that currently uses torsion beams been using wishbones or multi link for a previous model? I certainly don't think so. The French have been using torsion beams for decades, as have Vauxhall since the original Astras. Honda, to my knowledge, are the only manufacturer to have actually regressed!

Toyota group for all c segment cars and lower.
Fiat group for all c segment and lower cars are due to use torsion beam.
Nissan group (they are going to be using the Megane chassis for their new C sector cars apparently)

I think whats more important is to look at the manufacturers who use multilink setups in the C sector cars and are quite frankly....rubbish. Sometimes more expensive and sophisticated doesn't mean its better. EP3 setup is a classic example, one of the crashiest suspension setups I can remember and extremely flawed on non smooth roads.

[Ali]

Yes, but Honda's definition of a wishbone was rather tenuous at times. I remember a mechanic friend looking under my mum's EF Civic and trying to figure out where the hell the third link was, then realising it was absolutely tiny.

As for the current segment, you reckon the Golf and Focus are rubbish then? Strong words!

Nissan is discounted form your list because, as you say, they're using Renault platforms now. Renault have always used torsion beams. Can't comment on Toyota but I doubt any of the owners would notice as most seem to be asleep at the wheel. But FIAT haven't had sophisticated IRS in the C segment as far as I can remember. The Tipo/Bravo/Brava platform had a Macpherson strut assembly with longitudinal tie rods IIRC, certainly not wishbones or multi-link, and the 128/Strada platform had a leaf sprung rear end!

[EvoStu]

As for the current segment, you reckon the Golf and Focus are rubbish then? Strong words!

I didn't say those two were rubbish? :scratch:

My point is that there are only 2 manufacturers at the moment in the C sector who can build a decent independent suspension setup and you've named them both. They also have the largest amount of money (outside of Merc and BMW) set aside for R&D in the industry. Did you know that VW for instance have more employees at one R&D plant in Germany than Honda have in their entire production facilities in Japan.

Other manufacturers have tried independent setups and failed miserably. To be honest, was the EP3 suspension any good really? No it wasn't, in fact it was bloody awful in truth. Its not regressing, its just a different approach to design that is being tried thats all.

[kingofdbrits]

My point is that there are only 2 manufacturers at the moment in the C sector who can build a decent independent suspension setup and you've named them both. They also have the largest amount of money (outside of Merc and BMW) set aside for R&D in the industry. Did you know that VW for instance have more employees at one R&D plant in Germany than Honda have in their entire production facilities in Japan.

And the Golf costs £8k more and Ford nearly went out of business as they have the biggest R&D budget in the industry.

[Ali]

THe Golf doesn't cost £8k per model more at all, unless you go silly on the options. What model are you talking about?

And Stu, what manufacturers have tried IRS and reverted back to torsion beams? Outside of the Koreans, that is.

[kingofdbrits]

THe Golf doesn't cost £8k per model more at all, unless you go silly on the options. What model are you talking about?

When i was buying my FN2 i went next door to VW and sat down with a sales dude and specified a GTI to the same as the FN2, it was just over £8k more. Having added extras like, cruise control, auto wipers, nice seats and a few other things you expect from a £26k car it just became far too expensive.

Just done a configure for the Mk6, i've not gone mad just added what is standard on the FN2 plus leather seats as i hate the standard cloth.

[Papillon]

I couldn't give a monkey's about the suspension, there are numerous other factors that have a higher priority in an R.

Spot on. Too many wannabe Michael Schumachers think it makes a huge difference. It's a road car, a sporty one, but a road car. The vast majority wouldn't have a clue. On the track it might, but it's not designed for that, whatever people might think.

[Ali]

Wrong. Double wishbones allow far greater compliance because you can have greater wheel travel without any disruption of the camber geometry. Wishbones make a better road car because handling and ride quality are far easier to combine. Ironically, torsion beams are fine for track use because track cars have ludicrously stiff suspension anyway, having no need to worry about road surface. Hell, you could nail the wheels to the chassis on a track car and still have decent handling.

[Papillon]

Most people do not care, and most people couldn't for a moment tell the difference. There are many reasons for a good or bad setup of a car, and that's just one of them.

[EvoStu]

Wrong. Double wishbones allow far greater compliance because you can have greater wheel travel without any disruption of the camber geometry. Wishbones make a better road car because handling and ride quality are far easier to combine. Ironically, torsion beams are fine for track use because track cars have ludicrously stiff suspension anyway, having no need to worry about road surface. Hell, you could nail the wheels to the chassis on a track car and still have decent handling.

So hang on........torsion beams are only good for track use? All the manufacturers who use torsion beam at the moment produce cars which ride perfectly fine and as Pap states (and I've said it lots before) the majority of drivers cannot tell the difference and quite frankly do not care.

Oh by the way I just specced up a Golf GTI to the same spec as my CW edition without any options above what are already standard on the CW.

Total: £26540.00 otr.

[mc36155]

As for the current segment, you reckon the Golf and Focus are rubbish then? Strong words!

I didn't say those two were rubbish? :scratch:

My point is that there are only 2 manufacturers at the moment in the C sector who can build a decent independent suspension setup and you've named them both. They also have the largest amount of money (outside of Merc and BMW) set aside for R&D in the industry. Did you know that VW for instance have more employees at one R&D plant in Germany than Honda have in their entire production facilities in Japan.

Other manufacturers have tried independent setups and failed miserably. To be honest, was the EP3 suspension any good really? No it wasn't, in fact it was bloody awful in truth. Its not regressing, its just a different approach to design that is being tried thats all.

bloody awful (in truth? No, in your opinion, maybe)?? They are strong words. I thought the ep3 was said to be the best handling hot hatch of the time according to good old tiff nedell. and i do remember that the FN2 setup was sighted as having "awful" rebound issues. I believe that the term awful in both these instances is an exaggeration of the truth. forgive me for defending my cars suspension setup as vigorously as you seem to defend yours but i do love it.

[Papillon]

As for the current segment, you reckon the Golf and Focus are rubbish then? Strong words!

I didn't say those two were rubbish? :scratch:

My point is that there are only 2 manufacturers at the moment in the C sector who can build a decent independent suspension setup and you've named them both. They also have the largest amount of money (outside of Merc and BMW) set aside for R&D in the industry. Did you know that VW for instance have more employees at one R&D plant in Germany than Honda have in their entire production facilities in Japan.

Other manufacturers have tried independent setups and failed miserably. To be honest, was the EP3 suspension any good really? No it wasn't, in fact it was bloody awful in truth. Its not regressing, its just a different approach to design that is being tried thats all.

bloody awful?? They are strong words. i thought the ep3 was said to be the best handling hot hatch of the time according to good old tiff nedell.

But suspension is a compromise. And the EP3 was horrendously crashy on poor road surfaces.

[kingofdbrits]

As for the current segment, you reckon the Golf and Focus are rubbish then? Strong words!

I didn't say those two were rubbish? :scratch:

My point is that there are only 2 manufacturers at the moment in the C sector who can build a decent independent suspension setup and you've named them both. They also have the largest amount of money (outside of Merc and BMW) set aside for R&D in the industry. Did you know that VW for instance have more employees at one R&D plant in Germany than Honda have in their entire production facilities in Japan.

Other manufacturers have tried independent setups and failed miserably. To be honest, was the EP3 suspension any good really? No it wasn't, in fact it was bloody awful in truth. Its not regressing, its just a different approach to design that is being tried thats all.

bloody awful?? They are strong words. i thought the ep3 was said to be the best handling hot hatch of the time according to good old tiff nedell.

But suspension is a compromise. And the EP3 was horrendously crashy on poor road surfaces.

Not just poor road surfaces, the last straw for me to get rid of the EP3 was going under a bridge on the M1 just after J17, there's a slight dip in the road and at 70mph (ish) i jarred the small of my back and was in a fair bit of pain for days, thankfully this doesn't happen in the FN2 which i was glad about as i had to drive it every day for 6 months. I insisted on doing this bit of road on the test drive.

[Papillon]

As for the current segment, you reckon the Golf and Focus are rubbish then? Strong words!

I didn't say those two were rubbish? :scratch:

My point is that there are only 2 manufacturers at the moment in the C sector who can build a decent independent suspension setup and you've named them both. They also have the largest amount of money (outside of Merc and BMW) set aside for R&D in the industry. Did you know that VW for instance have more employees at one R&D plant in Germany than Honda have in their entire production facilities in Japan.

Other manufacturers have tried independent setups and failed miserably. To be honest, was the EP3 suspension any good really? No it wasn't, in fact it was bloody awful in truth. Its not regressing, its just a different approach to design that is being tried thats all.

bloody awful?? They are strong words. i thought the ep3 was said to be the best handling hot hatch of the time according to good old tiff nedell.

But suspension is a compromise. And the EP3 was horrendously crashy on poor road surfaces.

Not just poor road surfaces, the last straw for me to get rid of the EP3 was going under a bridge on the M1 just after J17, there's a slight dip in the road and at 70mph (ish) i jarred the small of my back and was in a fair bit of pain for days, thankfully this doesn't happen in the FN2 which i was glad about as i had to drive it every day for 6 months. I insisted on doing this bit of road on the test drive.

Same in the S2000 - I've driven up to Glasgow in it without needing a chiropractor at the other end. The EP3 was a nightmare on long journeys.

[Nick]

Same in the S2000 - I've driven up to Glasgow in it without needing a chiropractor at the other end. The EP3 was a nightmare on long journeys.

Really, I don't get that at all, in fact very comfortable :scratch:

[smartie]

How different we all are, I found the EP3 excellent on long drives, regular trips up north, 160 miles each way and I did a 5 hour drive to Wales in the EP3 no back problems, seats were awesome for me. (Not saying it had comfortable suspension on bad roads mind).

[Nick]

How different we all are, I found the EP3 excellent on long drives, regular trips up north, 160 miles each way and I did a 5 hour drive to Wales in the EP3 no back problems, seats were awesome for me. (Not saying it had comfortable suspension on bad roads mind).

You quite tall ?

[smartie]

How different we all are, I found the EP3 excellent on long drives, regular trips up north, 160 miles each way and I did a 5 hour drive to Wales in the EP3 no back problems, seats were awesome for me. (Not saying it had comfortable suspension on bad roads mind).

You quite tall ?

6'2

[Nick]

How different we all are, I found the EP3 excellent on long drives, regular trips up north, 160 miles each way and I did a 5 hour drive to Wales in the EP3 no back problems, seats were awesome for me. (Not saying it had comfortable suspension on bad roads mind).

You quite tall ?

6'2

I'm 6 so I wonder if that's to do with it. Iirc, Pap is quite a bit less in height

[Papillon]

How different we all are, I found the EP3 excellent on long drives, regular trips up north, 160 miles each way and I did a 5 hour drive to Wales in the EP3 no back problems, seats were awesome for me. (Not saying it had comfortable suspension on bad roads mind).

You quite tall ?

6'2

I'm 6 so I wonder if that's to do with it. Iirc, Pap is quite a bit less in height

Half an inch might be "quite a bit" to you, but not me. :cooldude: