The largest Civic Type R club forum

[Ali]

I'm less than convinced. These all cost, or will cost, the same:












Even you wouldn't choose the Honda Stu.

[EvoStu]

I wouldn't choose an MX5 as it only has two seats and no usable boot. I'd have ended up with an S2000 or an SLK55 if that was the case. The FT86 or whatever its calling itself these days won't look anything like that and by the time its due Toyota will have bottled it AGAIN and decided that a 1.7 diesel engine is good enough and fwd is ok.

Whereas the CRZ has come out of the concept wash looking remarkably unscathed and has delivered exactly what they said it would. It never promised fireworks from its engine, thats not what it was designed for and its for that very reason it will be the runaway success that Honda are expecting.

[Ali]

The CRZ has been ruined since the concept, which itself was no looker. The front overhang is simply hideous. And Subaru don't make a 1.7 diesel so Toyota better choose something they do make....

What worries me even more is that the CR-Z is based on a platform that has been universally slated for lousy ride quality, dull handing and a lacklustre powertrain. Not the best start for a sports car.

[EvoStu]

The CRZ has been ruined since the concept, which itself was no looker. The front overhang is simply hideous. And Subaru don't make a 1.7 diesel so Toyota better choose something they do make....

What worries me even more is that the CR-Z is based on a platform that has been universally slated for lousy ride quality, dull handing and a lacklustre powertrain. Not the best start for a sports car.

Nobody has driven it yet so we cannot pass judgement on it. The Toyota will be heavily toned down if it arrives (which it still may not).

[Ali]

Given that Subaru have already started putting production place, that is unlikely, even if it means they go with their own version alone. And, given what Mitsub are up to with the Evo, the FT86 platform would be ideal to have two front electric motors added to the RWD petrol platform to make the next STI.

[EvoStu]

Given that Subaru have already started putting production place, that is unlikely, even if it means they go with their own version alone. And, given what Mitsub are up to with the Evo, the FT86 platform would be ideal to have two front electric motors added to the RWD petrol platform to make the next STI.

We shall see mate. You should know better than that, than to believe that production versions come out of the wash looking exactly like their concept brothers.

[Ali]

Stu, you're mistaking my comments being about looks. Yes, I think the CRZ is a dog's dinner, but my main objection to it is the powertrain. For years we've wanted a new age CRX and, when they finally deliver it, it's with a pathetic wheezing 1.5 litre with 122bhp, less than almost all, but the original, CRX's had, but with the ridiculous added complexity and weight of a hybrid motor and batteries in a car that should be about lightness, simplicity and agility.

I'm not looking forward to the Toyobaru for it's looks, but for it's drivetrain. A proper cheap small RWD sports coupe hasn't seen the light of day for years. A car that finally gives normal people with normal budgets something to look forward to. The CRZ just doesn't.

[Papillon]

The entry level models of the CRX had smaller and less powerful engines than that. You're comparing the most powerful CRX to the entry level CRZ. Most manufacturers do it this way, starting with a weaker engine then adding more to the range.

[smartie]

Wasnt there a 1.3L 60hp CRX?

[EvoStu]

I'm not looking forward to the Toyobaru for it's looks, but for it's drivetrain. A proper cheap small RWD sports coupe hasn't seen the light of day for years. A car that finally gives normal people with normal budgets something to look forward to. The CRZ just doesn't.

You really are missing the point of the CRZ mate. Its not aimed at the same market as the Toyota/Subaru effort and if you think that the F86 will come in at any less than £22K then you are in dreamland. Think about how much the last Celica cost in its final run out and then factor in the now higher operating costs etc. Its just not going to be as affordable as you think.

[sjw]

Toyota have said 2,000,000 - 3,000,000 yen - they don't think they can sell it for more than 3 million. RX-8 pricing is 2,600,000 - 3,150,000, 350Z pricing is 500,000,000 -ish. Toyota Auris pricing is 1,622,000 - 2,331,000.

UK Auris pricing is £14,463 to £16,495 (best to ignore the upper figure, the JDM top line model is different). The only UK RX-8 model is equivalent specced to the top JDM model and costs 25k. 370Z is 27k-32k.

On that basis, I would agree that we're probably looking at low 20s, however it will inevitably go head to head with the Scirocco, which is priced from £18,860 for the 120bhp 1.4 TSi, £20,660 for the 160bhp 1.4 TSi and £23,540 for the 210bhp 2.0 TSi. With 200bhp, I think the FT-86 prices will be capped by the 2.0 Scirocco, and it is possible that Toyota will price it aggressively against the more powerful 1.4 TSi.

[EvoStu]

Toyota have said 2,000,000 - 3,000,000 yen - they don't think they can sell it for more than 3 million. RX-8 pricing is 2,600,000 - 3,150,000, 350Z pricing is 500,000,000 -ish. Toyota Auris pricing is 1,622,000 - 2,331,000.

UK Auris pricing is £14,463 to £16,495 (best to ignore the upper figure, the JDM top line model is different). The only UK RX-8 model is equivalent specced to the top JDM model and costs 25k. 370Z is 27k-32k.

On that basis, I would agree that we're probably looking at low 20s, however it will inevitably go head to head with the Scirocco, which is priced from £18,860 for the 120bhp 1.4 TSi, £20,660 for the 160bhp 1.4 TSi and £23,540 for the 210bhp 2.0 TSi. With 200bhp, I think the FT-86 prices will be capped by the 2.0 Scirocco, and it is possible that Toyota will price it aggressively against the more powerful 1.4 TSi.

All depends on just how much this crisis of theirs will effect their future strategy. I think they are going to have issues competing on price.

[Ali]

Wasnt there a 1.3L 60hp CRX?

Not sold here, it wasn't. The original UK EC1 was 1.5 litre and around 105bhp IIRC. But that was in 1984! The basic EE model, that everyone remembers, was the 1.6i-16 with 130bhp in '88 and the 1.6VT with 150bhp in '91.

Go on Stu, give is a laugh.What is the CRZ aimed at? People that see a Prius and think," I really want one of those, but I wish there was a tiny, cramped, overpriced, 2 seater version with a front end like Miss Piggy?" Do Honda expect people to jump out of their hot hatches,test drive one and think, "Wow, this is bloody slow and not nearly as economical as the figures suggest. But it has much lower CO2 emissions than my far more practical and better driving GTi so I'll buy one"?

People that are into green ecoweany environmentalism don't like sports cars, because they're probably just as likely to subscribe to Facebook pages that profess to give a poo about urban congestion, lowering speed limits and protecting children from paedo bear.

The large majority of them will probably have, or be planning to have, kids. And a CRZ, as a "sports" coupe is an entirely selfish purchase in their eyes. Marginally less selfish than a Scirocco or MX5, but it's not a Prius because that's a proper family car and, as such, can be justified in their Guardian reading eyes. They probably think that the CRZ's performance is blisteringly fast and dangerous to their little cherubs and they wouldn't be allowed to turn up at the next Green Party rally in one or they'd have free range organic eggs thrown at them.

But, go on, what are it's rivals then? And what demographic is supposed to buy one? Apart from Tigra and Micra CC owners, that is, who don't mind driving cramped ugly and overpriced cars with no performance?

[mat]

PRIUS + RX8 =




mat.

[Papillon]

The large majority of them will probably have, or be planning to have, kids. And a CRZ, as a "sports" coupe is an entirely selfish purchase in their eyes. Marginally less selfish than a Scirocco or MX5, but it's not a Prius because that's a proper family car and, as such, can be justified in their Guardian reading eyes. They probably think that the CRZ's performance is blisteringly fast and dangerous to their little cherubs and they wouldn't be allowed to turn up at the next Green Party rally in one or they'd have free range organic eggs thrown at them.

So? Again, why would Honda give a stuff as long as they buy it? Fact remains that the Guardianista market is a valid one, and if people buy it, then job done.

[smartie]

The large majority of them will probably have, or be planning to have, kids. And a CRZ, as a "sports" coupe is an entirely selfish purchase in their eyes. Marginally less selfish than a Scirocco or MX5, but it's not a Prius because that's a proper family car and, as such, can be justified in their Guardian reading eyes. They probably think that the CRZ's performance is blisteringly fast and dangerous to their little cherubs and they wouldn't be allowed to turn up at the next Green Party rally in one or they'd have free range organic eggs thrown at them.

So? Again, why would Honda give a stuff as long as they buy it? Fact remains that the Guardianista market is a valid one, and if people buy it, then job done.

We know Honda don't give a stuff about enthusiasts but that doesn't stop us having a good argument about its failings.

[Ali]

The large majority of them will probably have, or be planning to have, kids. And a CRZ, as a "sports" coupe is an entirely selfish purchase in their eyes. Marginally less selfish than a Scirocco or MX5, but it's not a Prius because that's a proper family car and, as such, can be justified in their Guardian reading eyes. They probably think that the CRZ's performance is blisteringly fast and dangerous to their little cherubs and they wouldn't be allowed to turn up at the next Green Party rally in one or they'd have free range organic eggs thrown at them.

So? Again, why would Honda give a stuff as long as they buy it? Fact remains that the Guardianista market is a valid one, and if people buy it, then job done.

You're being a bit thick this week, Paps. That's the point. The market this is aimed at simply doesn't exist. It's not nearly sporting enough to lure people out of conventional performance cars, and it's an impractical pseudo sports car which will immediately turn the green brigade away. In other words, it's utterly pointless. Had it been £13-16k it would have stood a chance, but not at the serious money Honda want.

You were quick enough to slate the Renault Wind as a Tigra wannabe. Well, news for you, this is Honda's Tigra. It's just that the posing involved is of the self-righteous green variety rather than the orange tan, bleached hair top down variety. And the market for self righteous green posing is already better taken care of by the Pious.

[EvoStu]

The large majority of them will probably have, or be planning to have, kids. And a CRZ, as a "sports" coupe is an entirely selfish purchase in their eyes. Marginally less selfish than a Scirocco or MX5, but it's not a Prius because that's a proper family car and, as such, can be justified in their Guardian reading eyes. They probably think that the CRZ's performance is blisteringly fast and dangerous to their little cherubs and they wouldn't be allowed to turn up at the next Green Party rally in one or they'd have free range organic eggs thrown at them.

So? Again, why would Honda give a stuff as long as they buy it? Fact remains that the Guardianista market is a valid one, and if people buy it, then job done.

You're being a bit thick this week, Paps. That's the point. The market this is aimed at simply doesn't exist. It's not nearly sporting enough to lure people out of conventional performance cars, and it's an impractical pseudo sports car which will immediately turn the green brigade away. In other words, it's utterly pointless. Had it been £13-16k it would have stood a chance, but not at the serious money Honda want.

So if something doesn't exist you can't do it? :scratch:

There's a fine line between wrong and visionary. Unfortunately, you have to be a visionary to see it, in this case.......you are wrong!

Honda will sell every single one they can build mate. They have a created a market all of their own, whats wrong with that? Also how can you say its impractical? Have you driven one? Have you been in one? I would hazard a guess, thats a no to both then?

And for the final time..........

ITS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE A SPORTS CAR!!!!!!!!! This is not an S2000, its a hybrid simply aimed at those people wanting something more interesting than a Prius. Stop trying to compare it to other cars which it hasn't even been made to compete with.
Its also cheaper than the other hybrids as well. But don't tell me........Subaru are planning a 500BHP Impreza coupe with hybrid technology that is going to sell for £11K otr and comes fully loaded with kit?

[Papillon]

The large majority of them will probably have, or be planning to have, kids. And a CRZ, as a "sports" coupe is an entirely selfish purchase in their eyes. Marginally less selfish than a Scirocco or MX5, but it's not a Prius because that's a proper family car and, as such, can be justified in their Guardian reading eyes. They probably think that the CRZ's performance is blisteringly fast and dangerous to their little cherubs and they wouldn't be allowed to turn up at the next Green Party rally in one or they'd have free range organic eggs thrown at them.

So? Again, why would Honda give a stuff as long as they buy it? Fact remains that the Guardianista market is a valid one, and if people buy it, then job done.

You're being a bit thick this week, Paps. That's the point. The market this is aimed at simply doesn't exist. It's not nearly sporting enough to lure people out of conventional performance cars, and it's an impractical pseudo sports car which will immediately turn the green brigade away. In other words, it's utterly pointless. Had it been £13-16k it would have stood a chance, but not at the serious money Honda want.

You were quick enough to slate the Renault Wind as a Tigra wannabe. Well, news for you, this is Honda's Tigra. It's just that the posing involved is of the self-righteous green variety rather than the orange tan, bleached hair top down variety. And the market for self righteous green posing is already better taken care of by the Pious.

Firstly, I didn't slate the Wind as a Tigra wannabe - nothing of the sort, I said it was in the same market, there was no aspersion cast. What you don't seem to grasp is that there are markets out there that don't include you, and you take the view that if you don't like it, it's automatically crap.

How do you know it doesn't exist? It goes some way beyond what you want - yet again. No doubt people slated Renault for the Scenic as going for a market that doesn't exist. So what if this is Honda's Tigra. If it sells, then it's done its job. I don't get why you seem to take it personally that a manufacturer builds a car that you don't want. Well, I've news for you, I think your car is an utterly hideous, chavtastic mess that only the seriously socially inadequate would ever want. And my opinion counts for what? Nothing is the answer, because you like it and you bought it, which is all that counts.

Sneering at the people who might buy this probably helps you to feel better and superior, but it doesn't mean they won't do it.

[Ali]

Well done, now you're just acting like a prat.

The Scenic was a no brainer because the Espace and Voyager had already proven the concept. The Prius sells because it is not only a hybrid, it is a very spacious and comfortable family car in it's current guise...which is also why the Insight is failing to sell, because it's cramped and rides terribly.

The Tigra and Wind will sell because they're cheap folding hard tops and some people in Britain seem to love that idea, though most of them are orange and live in Essex. They're the spiritual successor to the white Escort Cabriolet with white wheels. I wouldn't buy any of those, but I can see why people do.

But the CRZ? What is it? It's a hybrid, but you can only fit two people in it and it's completely impractical. It looks sporting, but it doesn't have any performance. It's a complete contradiction. If you removed the hybrid part of the equation and Honda had announced a 1.5L 2 seater coupe with 122bhp for £17k+ that doesn't even have a folding roof, everyone would still be laughing well into next month. But, for some reason, we have to excuse it's pointlessness "because it's a hybrid". Well, sorry to burst a bubble, but if the net result of Honda's hybrid tech is to pay vastly inflated prices for overweight and inadequate cars, good luck to them, because they'll need it.

It's not that I'm failing to see a market that Honda can create here. It's that the market they're trying to create doesn't exist because their are far better image led, impractical and fun cars for the same price and the CRZ looks incredibly limp, hybrid or not.

The only people "sneering" here are you and Stu with your "you just don't understand, it's a visionary thing" line of argument. I'm quite sure if Honda had brought out a 5 wheel, 1 seat vehicle powered by 30 gerbils and driven using a fork that you repeatedly stab yourself in the eye with, you'd be arguing much the same thing.