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BTCC, 4 wheels? 2 Wheels? On Water? How are the Honda teams doing?
User avatar
By Tec
#2057122
I would counter Evostus suggestion that someone is going to buy a Formula 1 team in the current environment. If someone does buy the team, it'll still have to cut the workforce immediately in half and then still go tits up half way through the season as the new company goes to the wall. Whatever happens Honda F1 (or its successor if there is one) will not survive 2009.

And then we have the other suspect teams, Renault, Toyota for sure. Toyota is already cutting budgets. Red Bull is there for the brand awareness, if no on watches they'll have no choice but to pull out.

This whole situation can only get worse for F1.
User avatar
By cheapskate
#2057151
I wonder how Honda will spin the whole Type R 'red H, racing heritage only on race cars.... etc' line now if they don't actually have any race cars ! (other than Indy cars maybe).

It's a sad state of affairs for Honda and Type R.


Bóllocks. I am sure they will still be involved in racing in Japan in other classes. They only went back into F1 in 2005, so it is not as if the majority of R cars on the roads can claim F1 cred.

If Honda had stayed out of that useless F1 nonsense and put the $300,000,000 ANNUAL budget into road car design and equipping, we would be able to buy a 1100 kg car with carbon fibre rims, an engine that had a 10,000 rpm red line and brakes that didn't need upgrading for the track. Their sales wouldn't have fallen 41% either. I don't mean all of that 300m should have gone into type R's, rather that spread over the whole range, all their cars would have been better value for money which would probably have resulted in greater sales as a consequence.

What Honda should do is put some effort into developing a type R car that is clearly best of it's type, the way the Civic Type R was seen as the best hot hatch for several years running. Although the sales of such cars will always be low relative to the total, they add cachet to a marque in a more meaningful way than stuffing around in F1 ever will. I will bet there have been a lot of standard model Hondas sold simply because the type R's exist.

Nissan's GT-R is a classic example. Given the level of tech that is in that thing, it's almost bespoke levels of construction and limited numbers, it surely must be a loss-leader. That is, it is sold for less than it costs to make because it adds prestige to the brand which translates to increased sales across the range.

Honda should at least reclaim the hot-hatch crown or produce GT-R / Evo equivalents.

Personally I am glad they have dropped out of F1. If they had sunk the money they have wasted on F1 into Type R's .....
User avatar
By EvoStu
#2057160
I would counter Evostus suggestion that someone is going to buy a Formula 1 team in the current environment. If someone does buy the team, it'll still have to cut the workforce immediately in half and then still go tits up half way through the season as the new company goes to the wall. Whatever happens Honda F1 (or its successor if there is one) will not survive 2009.

And then we have the other suspect teams, Renault, Toyota for sure. Toyota is already cutting budgets. Red Bull is there for the brand awareness, if no on watches they'll have no choice but to pull out.

This whole situation can only get worse for F1.


The current news is that there are apparently 5 serious buyers for the team and at the moment its business as usual.
Whilst I agree there will be cutbacks if someone takes over, I cannot see it being half of the workforce.

Remember Honda have a car which is apparently number 1 on the grid in terms of design as they are 6 months ahead of any rival in preperation.

Interesting times ahead.

With regards to what Cheapskate has said, I'll be interested to see what Honda do now with the new NSX project, I can see this being mothballed as well to be honest.

EvoStu.
User avatar
By Tec
#2057189

The current news is that there are apparently 5 serious buyers for the team and at the moment its business as usual.
Whilst I agree there will be cutbacks if someone takes over, I cannot see it being half of the workforce.

Remember Honda have a car which is apparently number 1 on the grid in terms of design as they are 6 months ahead of any rival in preperation.

Interesting times ahead.

With regards to what Cheapskate has said, I'll be interested to see what Honda do now with the new NSX project, I can see this being mothballed as well to be honest.

EvoStu.


A £300 million annual budget. A new buyer, if one is found, will make drastic cuts. If their 800 strong workforce is 6 months ahead, then I suppose the new buyers don't have to spend any money in that area, so get rid of all those and welcome the generic gearboxes and engines 2010.

There were serious buyers for Woolies last weekend. Now after people have looked over the accounts, its back down to the supermarkets cherry piking the stores which they want.

NSX project is dead. Honda is having big problems cutting back production all over, and its supposedly a decent well managed manufacturer. The economy will get worse, Swindon is now offering redundancies so I hear, in addition to the temporary closure. The tempory closure was announced before Novembers sales figures too. Decembers will no doubt show another fall. As will Januarys. And Februarys. And then Swindon may announce its opening for a month and then closing for two more, or just substantially reducing its workforce.

The car industry is on its knees, and it will get far worse.
User avatar
By Sacrificial Pawn
#2057202

I can see F1 being postponed this season.

EvoStu.


Yep.

Already tried to give some extra time to implement the new energy recirculator thing but with the medal rule and other crap that's been bought in, think we'll see a lot of the smaller teams pulling out; even more expensive for little to no reward.
User avatar
By Papillon
#2057210
I wonder how Honda will spin the whole Type R 'red H, racing heritage only on race cars.... etc' line now if they don't actually have any race cars ! (other than Indy cars maybe).

It's a sad state of affairs for Honda and Type R.


Bóllocks. I am sure they will still be involved in racing in Japan in other classes. They only went back into F1 in 2005, so it is not as if the majority of R cars on the roads can claim F1 cred.

If Honda had stayed out of that useless F1 nonsense and put the $300,000,000 ANNUAL budget into road car design and equipping, we would be able to buy a 1100 kg car with carbon fibre rims, an engine that had a 10,000 rpm red line and brakes that didn't need upgrading for the track. Their sales wouldn't have fallen 41% either. I don't mean all of that 300m should have gone into type R's, rather that spread over the whole range, all their cars would have been better value for money which would probably have resulted in greater sales as a consequence.

What Honda should do is put some effort into developing a type R car that is clearly best of it's type, the way the Civic Type R was seen as the best hot hatch for several years running. Although the sales of such cars will always be low relative to the total, they add cachet to a marque in a more meaningful way than stuffing around in F1 ever will. I will bet there have been a lot of standard model Hondas sold simply because the type R's exist.

Nissan's GT-R is a classic example. Given the level of tech that is in that thing, it's almost bespoke levels of construction and limited numbers, it surely must be a loss-leader. That is, it is sold for less than it costs to make because it adds prestige to the brand which translates to increased sales across the range.

Honda should at least reclaim the hot-hatch crown or produce GT-R / Evo equivalents.

Personally I am glad they have dropped out of F1. If they had sunk the money they have wasted on F1 into Type R's .....


Blah, blah, Honda didn't design the car I wanted blah, blah, not fair, blah, blah, toys out of pram, blah blah, how come they've sold more of this rubbish type r than before blah, blah blah. :roll:

Honda are out to make money. F1 is a halo business, and if it doesn't perform then it gets cut. Pretty simple really, why should they trash their name by finishing 15th every fortnight when it can be spent elsewhere. Honda have pulled out before.
User avatar
By Ali
#2057244
From technologically masterful world champions 20 years ago to technologically inert also-rans now. Sounds much like their cars....
User avatar
By Alanok
#2057278
EDIT-nah, we'll keep your view point, merged. - dandemoraliser

Very surprising news in one way. Honda have been and historically deeply commited to F1 and its a strong sign of the econmic turmoil car manufacturers are facing if Honda are jumping out of F1. But with all the resources being directed to the 2009 car very early on this season, 2009 could have been a turning point for the team. They had their KERS system working, the first fully designed car by Ross Brawn, new aero rules meant all teams started from 0.

In another its not surprising. Honda have been pretty shocking the past two seasons. Plus its not a good sign to their workers when they are shutting down factories for a few months and redunduncies loom, to then spend £millions on a sport that is seen as quite frivilous in this current climate.

Fingers crossed they can find a buyer because the potential for next season is huge. And Jenson will be able to show what he can do in a half decent car for the first time in a long time.
Last edited by Alanok on Fri Dec 05, 2008 12:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By mikeyv
#2057289
Strange that a thread about Winehouse and her drugs decline gets shifted to the murky depths of the music section, yet a thread concerning motor sport is started and allowed to flourish in general chat?

Wonder why?


Because it's a thread about the economy and we don't have an economy section

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nort ... 766299.stm



Thank fukc for that, I was afraid it might be a case of one rule for moderators and another for the rest of us. :roll:
User avatar
By rodanmk2
#2057290

The car industry is on its knees, and it will get far worse.


Teh truth.

I've been in quite a few meetings with major manufacturers recently, and even those lucky enough to have a good selling model are absolutely crapping themselves at the moment, especially those who have a parent company in Europe and have now found that the budget they have been dealing with that had previously pretty accurate Euro/Sterling exchange rates has now bitten them hard on the rump.

Prices are going up, big style. On one particular model that you wouldn't back as being at all popular, a raise of 7% on the base vehicle, plus a 4% reduction in support to us, plus doing away with the dealer and going to direct supply to save yet another 1%.

Models that are not selling particularly well are having to increase to deal with the exchange rate woes, combined with dealers trying to shed their stock at low prices, this is going to be a bizarre year ahead where there may end up being a shortage of cars all at high prices towards the end rather than the current climate of getting cracking deals because there is too much about.

I need to plan an exit route.
User avatar
By HondaType
#2057298
I was meant to be going up to Brackley to see them on Tuesday for a meeting. The company I work for received a partner letter that mentioned there are 3 prospective buyers so it’ll be interesting to see what happens. Fingers crossed they can find a buyer because it's such an impressive place, the investment must have been huge. :vconf:
User avatar
By rodanmk2
#2057301
I need to plan an exit route.


I thought you were moving to the US mate to look after dogs?

EvoStu.


Was, Am.

But....I REALLY don't want to sell the house in the current situation. And in addition, that Tennessee one fell through. There was an alternative one in Georgia, but it seemed to be the setting for the hut they discover at the end of The Blair Witch Project.

Also, if we wait until June time next year, pops in law can up his budget to closer to $1million rather than the $500 he has now. So for now, I stay put.

Which sucks.
User avatar
By EvoStu
#2057307
I was meant to be going up to Brackley to see them on Tuesday for a meeting. The company I work for received a partner letter that mentioned there are 3 prospective buyers so it’ll be interesting to see what happens. Fingers crossed they can find a buyer because it's such an impressive place, the investment must have been huge. :vconf:


Yup its a mightily impressive building. They will find someone to buy it I'm sure.
Image

EvoStu.
User avatar
By Papillon
#2057308
this is going to be a bizarre year ahead where there may end up being a shortage of cars all at high prices towards the end rather than the current climate of getting cracking deals because there is too much about.


Mmm, not sure about that. Trouble is that if that happens they just aren't going to sell at all, and cash flow is critical in tough times even if it's all happening at a loss. I'm absolutely sure the manufacturers would love everyone to think that is what's going to happen, mind, so that we all rush out and get a new motor, but I don't think it will. The exchange rate is not going to affect those manufacturers who have factories based here - indeed for exports to Europe it's going to put them in a better position.

But I reckon you're right about the exit strategy - unless you've got very deep pockets. Those who survive will be stronger coming out, but a lot won't make it.
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