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User avatar
By gearinator
#3191555
RM CYA wrote:The crossover doesn't look right. Look again mate. Edit - just saw your reply.

3.2k?? Looks about 4-4.5k rpm to me.

TDi souths mapping is good, I'm not doubting that, but I've never seen a graph like that after mapping with a dodgy dip. Regardless of mods, surely it's still possible to smooth out the dip, fcuk about with the timing tables, fueling etc.
Well exactly. That's the whole point of a map I thought which was for not just extra power but a smooth power delivery
User avatar
By sammo303
#3191627
Perhaps what he means by the resonance is over-scavaging of the inlet charge which is losing you power. If that is the case, I'd imagine the torque curve would look better with a later Vtec changeover meaning the valve lift and duration is lower around 4500rpm, reducing the scavaging effect. Just a thought...
User avatar
By pulpmelon_r
#3192344
Is it just me or has that TDI-South email struck a patronising tone or what?

Due to the volumes and lengths of the inlet and exhaust components you chose, TDI-south are saying air and sound pressure waves are adding to each other and giving you a low rpm hump (this is the racket from your inlet manifold). These waves separate and then cancel each other out in the midrange (killing your torque). Finally as the engine speed picks up the resonance disappears (until your next hump at 8k rpm then your next drip starts before the rev limiter)
I would bet £50 your next full dip would be at 9000rpm and the next hump at 12000rpm (if you could rev that far) from looking at the graph.

My suggestion to the OP is to take off the ITG and swap the stock air box for a test drive to see if that kills the resonance build up.
Last edited by pulpmelon_r on Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By karl.hart
#3192398
I have never seen a graph after being mapped from any tuner dip on the crossover like this, its almost like stock but with a vtec controller lowering the engagement. I would be very supprised if your mods would make such a big difference. I would advise you email this graph to CPL Racing and just ask guys opinion on this it maybe correct but worth a ask :)
User avatar
By RM CYA
#3192653
yeah id get in touch with other tuners, get their opinion. and yeah the email does seem a bit patronising.
User avatar
By N.Styles
#3192774
Thanks for the reply's guys.
Unfortunately I sold my original airbox a while back so have nothing to swap atm.

As it is I'm more than happy with the car at the moment & to be honest the dip in performance at that rev range is passed so quickly it goes unnoticed.
If you are driving hard then the revs don't fall back in that zone anyway.

I'll save a few quid up & buy a different cai just out of curiosity or maybe just hit the credit card & charge it.

Thanks for your comments though :bigthumb:
User avatar
By TDi-North
#3193545
Quick look and its not so much a dip but more a massive gain in torque from 3-4k which makes the dip look bigger than it actually is at 4500.

We see quite a few cars in with similar intakes and they are quite restrictive but give massive midrange torque but the dip at a crossover point where the cams really start to work which is at the 4500 mark and thats because all of a sudden they want to take a big gulp of air as the lift suddenly increases but there just isnt the air available due to the intake pipe diameter. You also see the power at top end drop off quite quickly and thats because the intake pipe to the airbox is so small causing the restriction.

Just compare it with RM CYA's plot and you will see what I mean.

If the intake was changed for say the GruppeM/TegiwaM or an AEM you would have a smoother curve, peak still rising but loose the big torque at 3-4K.
If the dip was really that big you would feel it like hitting a wall.

I have NA cars running vtec changeover as low as 3200. It all depends on the mods. Most "tuned" FN2's have crossover with standard cams around 3200-3700. :wink:


Edit: Having a closer look and going over a few similar cars I have done I have stuck changeover a bit later ie. 4500-4750
This isn't actually optimum but makes it "look" better for 3rd party analysis....if you know what I mean. :lol:
User avatar
By N.Styles
#3209835
Quick update & looking for a bit of advice.

My commute to work is 99% motorway & sitting at 70-80mph is right in the middle of that dodgy turbulance in the airbox/rbc zone
It's pretty much impossible to have a conversation unless you creep past the 4k mark where it quietens down, at which point it's 85+ so I'm finding myself driving at 65 instead! :ymca:
I've also noticed that my fuel isn't going quite as far as it did before it was modded.

What I'd like to know is which airbox to purchase,
I've owned a gruppe m & couldn't stand the noise in vtec so what other alternatives are there.

Ideally I'd like my car quiet at the front so I can hear the exhaust. At the moment it's the other way round!
I'm tempted to buy a standard box & do the hondata mod but would this lose me alot of bhp?

Any ideas :?:

cheers
User avatar
By RM CYA
#3209850
you is mad bro. intake noise is so much nicer!!!

Velocity Stacked AEM CAI ftw!!!
User avatar
By NHB_EP3_Chris
#3209858
I was always told tuning an engine is very much like tuning an instrument. When the acoustics sound just right you are doing well and vice versa. Different intake lengths can have a massive impact on the way an engine produces its power. Definately worth trying something else.
User avatar
By N.Styles
#3310947
Well after getting the car modded & having a rather dissapointing map in respect to the dips on the dyno ect due to my choice of mods,
I decided to dump the itg & replace it with a genuine mugen air filter bought new for less than half price.

The difference is very noticable with the car being alot quieter but still a way louder than stock.

The mental acceleration that the itg produced at low revs has calmed down :sad: but has been replaced by a smoother powerband after 4k rpm.
Once you hit 4k it really starts to move where the itg would bog down briefly & the power is there all the way to the rev limiter.

Maybe I'll get it remapped at some point which will probably produce a smoother dyno, but at the moment I'm happy with the change & actually got 375.4 miles to a tank which is an improvement over stock for me at least.
This was mostly M25 commuting with a little blast here & there.

If I was to do it all again I'd go straight to turbo...... lessons learnt [smilie=karls_thumb.gif]

cheers
User avatar
By N.Styles
#3578981
FYI
Remapped with a mugen box with exact same results.
User avatar
By N.Styles
#3620129
Late reply!

Afters £300 notes the map is identical in nearly every way!
This is going from an itg maxogen to a mugen airbox which I'm sure people would agree are quite different.

If the engine needed a huge gulp of air then the mugen must be 3 times the size of an itg yet the map/dip is the same.

Drives lumpy & jerky when cold as if the choke is out on an old car, yet once warmed up it's rapid.
Fuel consumption is worse, Used to get 320 before the dreaded amber light but now it's on at 270

No disrespect to tdisouth but I'll be trying other tuners in future as they seem far too busy with race spec cars to worry about a shitty old civic.

The scans below show the info & changing to an airbox 4x the price actually lost power.
Original 2012 (214.9hp) (156.1@5980rpm)
Image
2013 Mugen (213.5hp) (155.9@6050rpm)
Image
Difference
Image
User avatar
By Sinister
#3622318
Ok i have a pretty similar setup:

RBC, 3 inch exhaust, Hytech header, and ITG maxogen box with KPRO

I've been watching this topic for a long time now, so deceided to register myself here since u have just thesame issue as me as u can see on the dyno below.
I'm releived to hear that its not related to the airbox.
We beleive its due to the 3 inch exhaust itself, however you have a 2,5 inch if i'm correct?

I received some hints on the hondata forum to resolve it.
Code: Select all
Vtec point 4500rpm with OEM cams

rpm VTC
3000 35º
3500 30º
4000 30º
4250 35º
4500 40º 

advance ignition to 30º in this range and adjust a/f 13.00-13.5
I'll be testing it this weekend, i'll let u know.

But i believe your mapping is pretty similar to mine, do you have the kal?
If i can compare our 2 maps, maybe i can find some same issues with it and diagnose the cause.

You can check my dyno here:

Image
User avatar
By N.Styles
#3623113
1812_s wrote:try eurospec :wink:
ive been tdi-s twice for geo services but i dont think ill use them again neither
there labour is for rich folk :lol:
It is expensive but to be honest as long as the job is done well I don't mind.
mickdj wrote:http://www.civictype-r.co.uk/forum/view ... p?t=268424

My dyno charts basically a straight line
Tdi north has great feedback on the forum but it's a major trek for me :-(
Sinister wrote:Ok i have a pretty similar setup:

RBC, 3 inch exhaust, Hytech header, and ITG maxogen box with KPRO

I've been watching this topic for a long time now, so deceided to register myself here since u have just thesame issue as me as u can see on the dyno below.
I'm releived to hear that its not related to the airbox.
We beleive its due to the 3 inch exhaust itself, however you have a 2,5 inch if i'm correct?

I received some hints on the hondata forum to resolve it.
Code: Select all
Vtec point 4500rpm with OEM cams

rpm VTC
3000 35º
3500 30º
4000 30º
4250 35º
4500 40º 

advance ignition to 30º in this range and adjust a/f 13.00-13.5
I'll be testing it this weekend, i'll let u know.

But i believe your mapping is pretty similar to mine, do you have the kal?
If i can compare our 2 maps, maybe i can find some same issues with it and diagnose the cause.

You can check my dyno here:

Image
I've not got the map as a file as this really didn't interest me, even though I have kpro.
Just wanted them to work their magic & I'd leave it alone tbh.
Saying that though is a little unfair as it's a far quicker car than standard & I still enjoy driving it.
Like I mentioned above it's very quick once warmed up & fast enough
I'll measure the exhaust pipe & I'll also scan the details of the map this weekend to give you some more info.
Vtec still engages at 3800 which I believe is too early.

Maybe I got the wrong impression of a tuned car being smooth to drive?
User avatar
By TDi-North
#3623124
They should be smooth with stock cams. If something's not right and your not happy take it back. Shouldn't take long to sort the cold start settings out. ;)

I had a car in today with pretty much identical setup. High cam does start making more power than low very early but then drops off before picking up again. I set vtec at 4600 so it was after the dip and had a real smooth response. For the loss of a couple ftlb from 3500-4000 I would happily rather get it smoother upto vtec crossover where the high cam really starts to work

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