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By evilowl
#2115986
Right first of all I guess the standard disclaimer applies - what works for me may not work for you. Your mileage may vary. Batteries are not included. Contents may be hot. This guide is intended for performance users, not posers who just want bigger looking brakes.

How can I improve my brakes?

Well, the weakest parts of most braking systems are:

Fluid
Hoses
Pads

If you haven't upgraded these already, then you really need to.

So where to start?

Pads

The best road pads IMHO for doing the odd trackday are the Ferodo DS2500 - this is the pad you want when you spend around 80% or more time on the road. Plenty of information in the brakes section, please also check Broccer's Group Buy for discount.

Plus points: relatively cheap, excellent performance when hot and still good when cold, hard wearing
Downsides: Generate more brake dust than OEM, can be noisy if not bedded in properly

Fluid

For road use only, a decent DOT5.1 fluid such as AP, Castrol, Motul will be fine and will not fade on road in anything other than exceptional circumstances.

Positives: It will only require changing at regular servicing intervals, has a relatively high boiling point, not as expensive as a decent racing fluid
Negatives: Can compress under high temperatures leading to spongy brakes

For road and regular track use you should look at a decent DOT4 with a high boiling point such as Motul RBF600 or Castrol SRF.

Positives: Very high boiling point, so fade is kept at bay
Negatives: RBF600 is expensive at £15 per 500ml (you need 3 of them for a fluid change), has to be changed regularly (around every 4 - 6 months) as it absorbs moisture, and changed if you boil it.

Hoses

For hoses - a decent set of stainless steel Goodridge hoses will improve the pedal feel a lot.

Positives: increases pedal feel
Negatives: Price is around £60

Discs

The OEM Honda discs are very good indeed and you have to spend a serious amount of cash to improve on them IMHO. They are tough, long lasting, don't chew pads to pieces and are relatively resistant to warping at high temperatures

Positives: as above, plus price - OEM front discs are £42 each from your local dealer under the Honda Happiness scheme
Negatives: none for the money

The next stage up (you would have to be spending 80%> time on track to warrant these) would be something like the Dixcel heat slotted discs but they are a fair amount of money.

Positives: will be awesome on track
Negatives: not so good on the road, noisy, cost

Total cost of above

That lot will set you back around £300 fitted (including an hour's labour at your local garage) if you go for pads all round and good fluid



I have done numerous trackdays with that setup, also including 3 Honda Euro Tours at 3000 miles each and around 8 trips to the Nurburgring and I'm still (just) on my first set of pads and disks. Therefore they have lasted around 20,000 miles of hard use.

Ok I've got all that done but I'm spending more and more time on track

Well you have several options, but like everything in life they cost money. In the case of the AP kit, you need 17" aftermarket wheel for the caliper to clear the alloy. The Stoptech kit fits behing OEM wheels (only just)

Stoptech 4 pot brake kit
AP Racing 4 pot brake kit

The main reason to go for a set of 4 pots would be to do open pitlane trackdays where you are running for more than 30 minutes at a time on track. As an experienced track day enthusiast I never run for more than about 20 minutes per outing because the concentration required for driving for longer is too much, plus the rest of the car needs to cool down as well as the brakes.

You should absolutely not be able to fade the brakes on the public road, unless you are driving round with your foot resting on the pedal. The only time I have ever had fade on the road was due to 20 minutes of continuous hairpins in the Swiss Alps.

FN2 users who want a big brake kit:

Email [email protected]
Nicko11 wrote:I have dropped an email to Team Dynamics and this is a copy of the response:

We can confirm we are offering upgrade products for the Honda Civic FN2. At the moment we can confirm the following, all prices are plus VAT:

Brake Kit - £1500 + vat
Civic Kits involve:
- Calipers, 4-piston road specification types with a black or red finish.
- Caliper mounting brackets.
- Discs, Ø330x26mm thick, 48 cooling vanes, 8 grooves per brake face, bolted to alloy bell centres.
- Pads, Ferodo DS2500
- Hose adaptors to convert standard Honda hose to suit APR caliper hydraulic feed
- Brake fluid, 1Ltr high temp DOT 5.1.
- All mounting bolts, washers’ nuts etc…

17” aftermarket wheels with adequate spoke depth are required to clear this kit.

BTCC race replica wheels (15” & 16” do not suit upgrade calipers) – tyre packages available on request.
- 7x15" Pro race 1.2 £110.00
- 7x16" Pro race 1.2 £120.00
- 7x17" Pro race 1.2 £140.00
- 7.5x17" Pro race 1.2 £150.00
- 8x17" Pro race 1.2 £155.00
- 9x17" Pro race 1.2 £165.00
- 8x18" Pro race 1.2 £160.00
- 9x18" Pro race 1.2 £185.00
- 9x20" Pro race 1.2 £260.00

Please excuse the lack of prices available, we will have all of this information by next week. All of the products have been developed from our BTCC race cars. We have a continued relationship with our Motorsport suppliers, which has enabled us to provide a road legal upgrade to the standard road going Honda Civic FN2. A fitment service will be available in due course, though at present it is supply only.

I have attached some photographs. There will be more to follow.

Image

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So evilowl, you seem quite opinionated - why don't you like cheap kits?

Put simply, I have never found most so-called "upgrades" to be any value for money whatsoever. Either they do not perform better than OEM parts, or they suffer from manufacturing faults and all sorts. My advice is to do the basics - fluid/pads/hoses, or if you really want to spend the money, get the right big brake kit for your intended purposes and one that has been well tested for your car.

The braking system on a car is important. It is there to stop you having a big accident because you can't slow down in time. So-called upgrades that upset the brake balance bias will just cause you to crash if you stamp on the middle pedal and the rear locks up before the front.

At the end of the day we are all entitled to our own opinion, and unlike most people I do actually go out and use my car as Honda intended it to be used. I am sharing my knowledge of 5 years ownership of this car and 15 years of driving performance hatchbacks. I try and stop people from wasting money like I have in the past, I don't make any money out of promoting one kit or another so I am not biased in that respect. It doesn't always make me popular with people who make a living from selling these items though.
#2115993
Anyone who wants to learn more about brake systems - this is an excellent resource of good information

http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/tech_ ... pers.shtml

My favourite quote:
Stoptech wrote:There are a few basic facts that must always be kept in mind when discussing brake systems:

1) The brakes don't stop the vehicle - the tires do. The brakes slow the rotation of the wheels and tires. This means that braking distance measured on a single stop from a highway legal speed or higher is almost totally dependent upon the stopping ability of the tires in use - which, in the case of aftermarket advertising, may or may not be the ones originally fitted to the car by the OE manufacturer.
#2123684
The FN2 user manual says NOT to use DOT 5 as it's not compatible with the braking system. DOT 3 & 4 are what Honda say must be used.

Edit: as you've put a lot of effort in I'll post the page from the manual to avoid any confusion.

Image
#2123761
kingofdbrits wrote:The FN2 user manual says NOT to use DOT 5 as it's not compatible with the braking system. DOT 3 & 4 are what Honda say must be used.

Edit: as you've put a lot of effort in I'll post the page from the manual to avoid any confusion.

Image
Your quite right you shouldn't use DOT 5. But that is very different to DOT5.1 fluid. DOT 5 is silicon based and as a result eats rubber brake lines. DOT 5.1 is just an improvement over normal DOT4 fluids (of course not so on the high boiling point DOT4) all of which being glycol based.
User avatar
By mat
#2151526
good post owl, very helpfull...

my rear pads and discs are pretty ruined, and to be honest i'm not a massive fan of my honda's brakes so i'm thinking of taking your advice, i'm going to get some mintex rear discs (or are mintex bad?) with ferodo ds2500 pads and for the front i'm going to swap my oem pads for the ds2500's (the front discs are 12mnths old oem honda ones) ...
now, brake line wise, i have seen these creeping into the magazines recently and they are a good price too for all four lines (and available in bling colours!!)

http://helcarkits.co.uk/index.php?main_ ... cts_id=428

what do you reckon??

cheers,

mat.
ps. fluid wise would it just be ok to get whichever is the cheapest of the AP, Castrol, Motul 5.1 fluids from opie oils?
#2151616
Never heard of those lines, I would be inclined to stick to a tried and tested solution such as Goodridge

DS2500 pads at the rear is overkill mate, OEM pads and discs for the rear will be fine, just change the pads at the front.

Fluid wise, depends what you plan on doing with the car. For road use any of the decent branded 5.1 fluids will be fine but for trackdays I would advise a good DOT4 racing fluid with high wet and dry boiling points
#2151798
evilowl wrote:Never heard of those lines, I would be inclined to stick to a tried and tested solution such as Goodridge
Just to add, i've got a set of Earl's braided lines and the rears aren't quite long enough. So when you change the rear pads you have to unscrew the line from the caliper to get it off the disk, which is annoying as you'd only need another 5-10mm of line.
#2161883
You have to spend a decent amount of money on discs (£300+) to see any improvement on OEM Honda, which are £42 plus VAT each from main dealers.

You can leave the rears standard or fit DS2500 pads if you wish, just depends how well off you're feeling
#2165057
Do you see an improvement with just hoses+fluid over OEM?

How do you like the EBC Redstuff? I've found them to be hell of alot better than OEM but I've not tried the Ferodo's yet.

I find OEM too easy to fade!
#2165148
dogzilla wrote:Do you see an improvement with just hoses+fluid over OEM?

How do you like the EBC Redstuff? I've found them to be hell of alot better than OEM but I've not tried the Ferodo's yet.

I find OEM too easy to fade!
Dont be asking Evilowl about EBC mate :lol:
#2165861
dogzilla wrote:Do you see an improvement with just hoses+fluid over OEM?
Yes there will be an improvement but to make the most you really need the pads upgraded as well
dogzilla wrote:How do you like the EBC Redstuff? I've found them to be hell of alot better than OEM but I've not tried the Ferodo's yet.
I compare EBC to apple crumble - actually I'd go so far as to say that apple crumble would do a better job
dogzilla wrote:I find OEM too easy to fade!
That will be down to the road fluid supplied from the factory

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