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Established in 2002 it brings together people from all over the world to discuss their one love of Type R's.

Information, speculation and anything else specifically related to Mugen products.
User avatar
By EvoStu
#3176326
HondaType wrote:Thats the point. People don't want to know what goes into building it, hence why people will always come back to the price.
People just look at it and say oh its just another Type R, but its really not. Everything on that car is balanced perfectly. Those who have seen it being built understand the cost and those who have driven it definitely understand the cost. Whilst its out of the realms of possibility of most people on here, for some its really not.
#3176328
EvoStu wrote:
HondaType wrote:Thats the point. People don't want to know what goes into building it, hence why people will always come back to the price.
People just look at it and say oh its just another Type R, but its really not. Everything on that car is balanced perfectly. Those who have seen it being built understand the cost and those who have driven it definitely understand the cost. Whilst its out of the realms of possibility of most people on here, for some its really not.
same reason people buy the standard 430, and some hold out for the scuderia.......
User avatar
By EvoStu
#3176352
dandemoraliser wrote:
EvoStu wrote:
HondaType wrote:Thats the point. People don't want to know what goes into building it, hence why people will always come back to the price.
People just look at it and say oh its just another Type R, but its really not. Everything on that car is balanced perfectly. Those who have seen it being built understand the cost and those who have driven it definitely understand the cost. Whilst its out of the realms of possibility of most people on here, for some its really not.
same reason people buy the standard 430, and some hold out for the scuderia.......
Didn't think of it like that. :bigthumb:

Veyron..........Veyron SS.
User avatar
By mezmo
#3176430
EvoStu wrote:
mezmo wrote:Superb car. This for me shows Honda can still produce arguably the best hot hatch when they want too, even with a N/A engine. I just wish they mass produced this car like they did with the FN2. Its probably more than capable of mixing it with the likes of the latest Focus RS and Megane 250. That price tag is frankly ridiculous though.
I'm going to repeat myself again but until you see what goes into building one of these, don't comment on the price.
:lol: Doesn't matter what work went into it, different suspension, brakes and engine work does not warrant almost double the price over a regular type r. Seriously take the blinkers off for once. Yes it's an awesome car, but the extra work I mentioned above does not warrant almost an extra £20k over a regular type r. You can get the same quality of work done with the same or better components by reputable engine builders for £k'ss less than that. I'm not knocking the car. I'm knocking the rip off price Honda are charging for some exclusivity.
#3176461
mezmo wrote:
EvoStu wrote:
mezmo wrote:Superb car. This for me shows Honda can still produce arguably the best hot hatch when they want too, even with a N/A engine. I just wish they mass produced this car like they did with the FN2. Its probably more than capable of mixing it with the likes of the latest Focus RS and Megane 250. That price tag is frankly ridiculous though.
I'm going to repeat myself again but until you see what goes into building one of these, don't comment on the price.
:lol: Doesn't matter what work went into it, different suspension, brakes and engine work does not warrant almost double the price over a regular type r. Seriously take the blinkers off for once. Yes it's an awesome car, but the extra work I mentioned above does not warrant almost an extra £20k over a regular type r. You can get the same quality of work done with the same or better components by reputable engine builders for £k'ss less than that. I'm not knocking the car. I'm knocking the rip off price Honda are charging for some exclusivity.

:salut:
User avatar
By EvoStu
#3176524
danneth wrote:
mezmo wrote:
EvoStu wrote:
mezmo wrote:Superb car. This for me shows Honda can still produce arguably the best hot hatch when they want too, even with a N/A engine. I just wish they mass produced this car like they did with the FN2. Its probably more than capable of mixing it with the likes of the latest Focus RS and Megane 250. That price tag is frankly ridiculous though.
I'm going to repeat myself again but until you see what goes into building one of these, don't comment on the price.
:lol: Doesn't matter what work went into it, different suspension, brakes and engine work does not warrant almost double the price over a regular type r. Seriously take the blinkers off for once. Yes it's an awesome car, but the extra work I mentioned above does not warrant almost an extra £20k over a regular type r. You can get the same quality of work done with the same or better components by reputable engine builders for £k'ss less than that. I'm not knocking the car. I'm knocking the rip off price Honda are charging for some exclusivity.

:salut:
Ohhhhhh Danneth agreeing with something against me shock! :lol:

Mezmo, forget the parts, what about the R&D into producing something this exclusive? Do you actually know what went into producing a bespoke 2.2 Mugen engine? Do you actually know what goes into actually building that engine? The fact is uses THE most accurate in the country? The fact it has parts on it YOU can't actually buy from Mugen?

Fact is you think you know about the car, but you don't. You look at the price and say its not worth it, thats fine, but the reality is its the best that money can buy on that car, no ifs or buts, its a fact.

And by the way, sorry to correct you again but its not Honda selling it.
#3176534
EvoStu wrote:
danneth wrote:
mezmo wrote:
EvoStu wrote:
mezmo wrote:Superb car. This for me shows Honda can still produce arguably the best hot hatch when they want too, even with a N/A engine. I just wish they mass produced this car like they did with the FN2. Its probably more than capable of mixing it with the likes of the latest Focus RS and Megane 250. That price tag is frankly ridiculous though.
I'm going to repeat myself again but until you see what goes into building one of these, don't comment on the price.
:lol: Doesn't matter what work went into it, different suspension, brakes and engine work does not warrant almost double the price over a regular type r. Seriously take the blinkers off for once. Yes it's an awesome car, but the extra work I mentioned above does not warrant almost an extra £20k over a regular type r. You can get the same quality of work done with the same or better components by reputable engine builders for £k'ss less than that. I'm not knocking the car. I'm knocking the rip off price Honda are charging for some exclusivity.

:salut:
Ohhhhhh Danneth agreeing with something against me shock! :lol:

Mezmo, forget the parts, what about the R&D into producing something this exclusive? Do you actually know what went into producing a bespoke 2.2 Mugen engine? Do you actually know what goes into actually building that engine? The fact is uses THE most accurate in the country? The fact it has parts on it YOU can't actually buy from Mugen?

Fact is you think you know about the car, but you don't. You look at the price and say its not worth it, thats fine, but the reality is its the best that money can buy on that car, no ifs or buts, its a fact.

And by the way, sorry to correct you again but its not Honda selling it.
Don't take it personal, ive said in many threads how awesome this car is, and id love to own one, but i would never pay that amount it is just a hot hatch at the end of the day same as the focus RS500 overpriced imo
User avatar
By EvoStu
#3176572
danneth wrote:Don't take it personal, ive said in many threads how awesome this car is, and id love to own one, but i would never pay that amount it is just a hot hatch at the end of the day same as the focus RS500 overpriced imo
RS500 was way less bespoke than this though. :bigthumb:
#3176581
EvoStu wrote:
danneth wrote:
mezmo wrote:
EvoStu wrote:
mezmo wrote:Superb car. This for me shows Honda can still produce arguably the best hot hatch when they want too, even with a N/A engine. I just wish they mass produced this car like they did with the FN2. Its probably more than capable of mixing it with the likes of the latest Focus RS and Megane 250. That price tag is frankly ridiculous though.
I'm going to repeat myself again but until you see what goes into building one of these, don't comment on the price.
:lol: Doesn't matter what work went into it, different suspension, brakes and engine work does not warrant almost double the price over a regular type r. Seriously take the blinkers off for once. Yes it's an awesome car, but the extra work I mentioned above does not warrant almost an extra £20k over a regular type r. You can get the same quality of work done with the same or better components by reputable engine builders for £k'ss less than that. I'm not knocking the car. I'm knocking the rip off price Honda are charging for some exclusivity.

:salut:
Ohhhhhh Danneth agreeing with something against me shock! :lol:

Mezmo, forget the parts, what about the R&D into producing something this exclusive? Do you actually know what went into producing a bespoke 2.2 Mugen engine? Do you actually know what goes into actually building that engine? The fact is uses THE most accurate in the country? The fact it has parts on it YOU can't actually buy from Mugen?

Fact is you think you know about the car, but you don't. You look at the price and say its not worth it, thats fine, but the reality is its the best that money can buy on that car, no ifs or buts, its a fact.

And by the way, sorry to correct you again but its not Honda selling it.
So why go to such lengths developing parts for a hatchback that was going out of production and knowing full well it would over inflate the price of the car? If it were a car along the lines of an S2000 i.e. a sports car it'd make more sense. Even still people would be reluctant to pay top dollar for something that wears a Honda badge, no matter how many times you tell people it's bespoke.

The R.26R was a nutty motor that people raved about and was maybe 2/3rds of the price and that struggled to sell. Maybe it didn't have custom panels nor the same focus on engineering perfection, but the K20 has been struck off, so why bother :vconf:

I love these type of cars, don't get me wrong and I will always be very fond of performance Honda's, but if someone said to me "Here's £40k, go buy yourself a new quick car", I'd be off to Lotus, BMW or Porsche.
User avatar
By EvoStu
#3176594
HondaType wrote:So why go to such lengths developing parts for a hatchback that was going out of production and knowing full well it would over inflate the price of the car? If it were a car along the lines of an S2000 i.e. a sports car it'd make more sense. Even still people would be reluctant to pay top dollar for something that wears a Honda badge, no matter how many times you tell people it's bespoke.

The R.26R was a nutty motor that people raved about and was maybe 2/3rds of the price and that struggled to sell. Maybe it didn't have custom panels nor the same focus on engineering perfection, but the K20 has been struck off, so why bother :vconf:

I love these type of cars, don't get me wrong and I will always be very fond of Honda performance cars, but if someone said to me "Here's £40k, go buy yourself a new quick car", I'd be off to Lotus, BMW or Porsche.
But you miss the point of it. Plus you're missing who the average buyer of the Mugen cars are. They aren't people who only have one car, they're people who can afford to run several cars of an exclusive nature. These cars are targeting enthusiasts with a disposable income who want the very best, and as Dan's analogy stated its like those people who buy a Ferrari F430. There are those that will be happy with the standard car but the Scuderia comes along which is refined and more track focused in every single way with bespoke engine parts and trim, yet costs a whole lot more, this Mugen is no different. The scales are the same, its all relative.

You might goto Lotus, BMW or Porsche but none of them would be as exclusive.

With regards to the R26.R, Renault knew when they were building it that they wouldn't sell them all but risked it with the production run and it backfired, and to answer your question why these manufacturers do it? Simple, because they want to and because they can. You should be happy that there are those people in the world wanting to push the envelope of what is capable with the K20.
#3176660
EvoStu wrote:
HondaType wrote:So why go to such lengths developing parts for a hatchback that was going out of production and knowing full well it would over inflate the price of the car? If it were a car along the lines of an S2000 i.e. a sports car it'd make more sense. Even still people would be reluctant to pay top dollar for something that wears a Honda badge, no matter how many times you tell people it's bespoke.

The R.26R was a nutty motor that people raved about and was maybe 2/3rds of the price and that struggled to sell. Maybe it didn't have custom panels nor the same focus on engineering perfection, but the K20 has been struck off, so why bother :vconf:

I love these type of cars, don't get me wrong and I will always be very fond of Honda performance cars, but if someone said to me "Here's £40k, go buy yourself a new quick car", I'd be off to Lotus, BMW or Porsche.
But you miss the point of it. Plus you're missing who the average buyer of the Mugen cars are. They aren't people who only have one car, they're people who can afford to run several cars of an exclusive nature. These cars are targeting enthusiasts with a disposable income who want the very best, and as Dan's analogy stated its like those people who buy a Ferrari F430. There are those that will be happy with the standard car but the Scuderia comes along which is refined and more track focused in every single way with bespoke engine parts and trim, yet costs a whole lot more, this Mugen is no different. The scales are the same, its all relative.

You might goto Lotus, BMW or Porsche but none of them would be as exclusive.

With regards to the R26.R, Renault knew when they were building it that they wouldn't sell them all but risked it with the production run and it backfired, and to answer your question why these manufacturers do it? Simple, because they want to and because they can. You should be happy that there are those people in the world wanting to push the envelope of what is capable with the K20.
I can see you are willing to argue this and whatever I say will miss the point.... The difference between a Honda owner and a Ferrari owner is night and day. Whilst I understand the analogy and regardless of how good the car is, £40k for what is essentially still a Honda Civic, is a lot of money. It's fairly unlikely someone like Chris Evans will have one nestled between his 250 GTO and his 599 in years to come.

What does the average Mugen owner look like? Me being slightly cynical, I'm guessing possibly someone that will buy the car, put it in a garage and not drive it, then hope it's worth exponentially more than they paid for it. Only to find they've got a car that's lost a fair bit of money

As I said, I applaud manufacturers that develop projects like this. I just feel the scope was too wide and went too far and loses sight of the type of person that might actually buy it.
User avatar
By EvoStu
#3176745
HondaType wrote:I can see you are willing to argue this and whatever I say will miss the point.... The difference between a Honda owner and a Ferrari owner is night and day. Whilst I understand the analogy and regardless of how good the car is, £40k for what is essentially still a Honda Civic, is a lot of money. It's fairly unlikely someone like Chris Evans will have one nestled between his 250 GTO and his 599 in years to come.

What does the average Mugen owner look like? Me being slightly cynical, I'm guessing possibly someone that will buy the car, put it in a garage and not drive it, then hope it's worth exponentially more than they paid for it. Only to find they've got a car that's lost a fair bit of money

As I said, I applaud manufacturers that develop projects like this. I just feel the scope was too wide and went too far and loses sight of the type of person that might actually buy it.
The difference isn't night and day, its all relative. I know people with car collections that include really odd cars like old midgets yet also include a Veyron and a brand new McLaren. You cannot say what or who these cars appeal to. The fact is the difference in price between an F430 and a Scuderia is £50K, the difference between the Scuderia and the Scuderia 16M is £40K. See its all relative. Those people who can afford an F430 might not be able to afford the Scuderia and if they could wouldn't want the more track focused car.

Ask Mugen themselves who buys them. Apparently the typical buyer is not what you'd think, it varies massively.

I agree its expensive for a Civic, but you really do miss the point as to what the car is and what is stands for from a purely mechanical aspect. If you see this thing being built and the work that goes into it, you will understand why its the money it is.

Having spent time with the concept, the M20 and now the 2.2 I can tell you its an absolute manic piece of kit and if I didn't have such a requirement for something a bit more staid I'd happily own one.
User avatar
By devil84
#3176757
At the end of the day, its about supply and demand, and Honda have restricted supply at 40? and have sold 36 for the full asking price.

From a price point, they were not far of the mark - 10% give or take.

So yes, £36k is expensive for a Civic per se, but you have to appreciate there is only 40 around the country (well 36 on the road), hence the high asking price. Kudos for Honda undertaking this project,
User avatar
By EvoStu
#3176785
HondaType wrote:20 Mugen's were made, 16 were sold and four that didn't sell are to be upgraded to the 2.2. No mention on what that'll cost.
15 sold. 1 they washed their hands of (long story). One 2.2 built (its awesome) and it will remain a Mugen owned car, and that leaves 4 remaining cars to be built to the 2.2 specification.

Its a collectors item trust me. An M20 has already ended up in Hong Kong with a private buyer if I remember correctly and they have a 100% import luxury tax on cars at this price. Making the M20 an £80K purchase. So as I said, its all relative, just because you personally wouldn't buy it due to income or whatever doesn't mean someone won't, and just remember as I said, this won't be their solely used car unlike yourself. It will be a toy.
User avatar
By motty
#3176794
EvoStu wrote:
HondaType wrote:20 Mugen's were made, 16 were sold and four that didn't sell are to be upgraded to the 2.2. No mention on what that'll cost.
15 sold. 1 they washed their hands of (long story). One 2.2 built (its awesome) and it will remain a Mugen owned car, and that leaves 4 remaining cars to be built to the 2.2 specification.
? please explain
User avatar
By EvoStu
#3176800
motty wrote:
EvoStu wrote:
HondaType wrote:20 Mugen's were made, 16 were sold and four that didn't sell are to be upgraded to the 2.2. No mention on what that'll cost.
15 sold. 1 they washed their hands of (long story). One 2.2 built (its awesome) and it will remain a Mugen owned car, and that leaves 4 remaining cars to be built to the 2.2 specification.
? please explain
Can't really. Not my place to do so. :oops:
User avatar
By motty
#3176833
smartie wrote:Did someone put one through a showroom window?
seem to remember the clip being on here or youtube :scratch: so that could be the answer
#3176876
smartie wrote:Did someone put one through a showroom window?
Not quite a shop window. It was crashed at the moving motorshow at goodwood when the driver passed out due to the heat. To be honest though it was one of the hottest weekends of the year that one.

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